I used to sit on the 21st floor. Now I am retired

Thursday, May 18, 2006

Data on reservations?

I had said that I had moved on, but I must link you to two excellent posts by Confused on the issue. (1) and (2)

Also, in mail yesterday, I got an IIT faculty member's views on reservations. I and another fellow-blogger had talked about doing fact-finding on the issue, and if only I didn't become swamped over the last fortnight, we would have made some progress. What we planned to do was find data on performance of reservation quotas in IITs and IIMs. However, after reading this, I do shudder a little...
"It is the hypocrisy of the highest order that on one hand the reservation for SC/STs is considered a success and quoted for extension to OBCs, and on the other hand, no hard data on the performance of these students is available in the public domain. Some administrators I talked to consider this data as sensitive! Analysis of where the reserved category students go after graduation would be enlightening. I do not have the sensitive data but my experience shows that most of them either go to services like IAS/IES or to the public sector companies. Normally this choice of careers by IIT graduates should be a matter of satisfaction except that both these entries are again using the reservation quota..."

If a Professor himself can't find the data while being inside the system, what is the hope of getting it from outside?

Thus, Professor has to write from his experience, "IITs have had reservations for SC/STs for decades. Why would this be different? Aren’t these students likely to be better prepared than the students admitted under the existing reserved category? Here I would like to share some of the facts with the readers. IITs have been admitting SC/ST students for years under two modes. From the general category, a significantly lower JEE cutoff is decided and reserved category students scoring above this cutoff are admitted directly to the UG programmes. Another still lower cutoff is decided and reserved category students from this set are admitted to a one year preparatory course conducted by IITs themselves. After passing this course, they can join the programmes without having to appear in JEE again. Even this exercise collectively yields less than 15% in IIT Delhi though the quota amounts to nearly 22.5%. Half of the reserved category students manage to clear courses comfortably while the other half struggle on the margins. What would be called a good performance (cumulative grade point average or CGPA of 8 and above) and is achieved by nearly forty percent of general category students, is rare and occurs once in many years among the reserved category students. It is not that all general category students do well. There is nearly a 5% “dropout” rate even among them which is a cause of concern but mainly attributed to the burnout due to JEE preparation phase..."

I couldn't find a copy of this note online. So, can't link to it.


Blogger Bharat Jhurani said...

Ven v all know tht that the reserved ppl( pun), would not b able 2 cope up with competition y allow them and tarnish the image of the insti...

Friday, May 19, 2006 8:17:00 AM

Blogger confused said...

Thanks, Dhoomketu for the link. At last my blog gets some readers!

The problem is that people dont want to study stats, all which seems to matter is anecdotes in which case the debate gets rduced to ''mera anecdote tere anecdote se accha hai''

In answer to your question according to NSSO 1999, there is not much difference between job opportunities between Uppercastes/ Backwards and Dalits of similar educational background.

Yet, we don't see many Dalits in Private industry. But they have jobs!

So, put 2 and 2 together and you will know where they are going.

This is the sort of question which should be asked but for that you need stats and rational debate, when some people cannot get over demanding respect for themselves, what kind of debate can you expect?

Friday, May 19, 2006 6:50:00 PM

Blogger dhoomketu said...

Bharat, sms gting 2 u. my problem is not with tarnishing image, the problem is with allocating scarce goods in a sub-optimal manner.

Confused, you are welcome! Let me look at this survey. Would be enlightening, I am sure. And yes, the last line of your comment was aptly put.

Friday, May 19, 2006 8:19:00 PM

Blogger Illogical Truisms said...

I had said that I had moved on,...

difference is, this time you are talking rather than telling stories of monkeys and shouting, "Strawman", "Red Herring!"...

Saturday, May 20, 2006 5:26:00 AM

Blogger dhoomketu said...

look who's here!!

Saturday, May 20, 2006 5:33:00 AM

Blogger Doctor Bruno said...

New Definition of Merit by Delhi Doctors
The ugly side of few perverted minds in Delhi
For nearly two weeks few guys in the capital were shouting that Merit is going to be compromised due to reservations. All the while, there had clear cut evidence as to show that Merit will be NO WAY affected due to reservations and that reservations are going to uplift the society as a whole.
Now the cat is out of the bag.
As per Rediff a guy called Armaan, who is a doctor leading the antireservation agitation says
“ We prefer reservation for people who deserve it. It’s not that we don’t have a conscience. We do care for the poor, those who really need help. We should have reservation on the basis of economy.”
So, at last as we have been telling all these days, these depraved guys never bothered about Merit. Merit was just an excuse for Apartheid. I would like to know the reaction of all those who were crying in the name of Merit (including two self-centered caste-centered nepotistic chaps who resigned from the knowledge commission in the name of merit) as to the new shift in demand by the Doctors that they are ready for Quota based on Economy, but not for quota based on Caste.
For those who do not know the difference, let me explain
Now if seats are reserved on the basis of caste, let us assume that a Student from FC will get the seat if he scores 297 out of 300 where as a student from SC will get the seat even if he scores 291 out of 300 (these are the cut off values from MBBS Admission in Tamil Nadu in 2005)
So far the apartheid guys were shouting loud that merit will be affected. There were even remarks from few of those “intelligent” chaps that a guy who scored 292 (SC guy who has got seat) is less talented (or less meritorious – let me repeat the word play) than the forward caste guy who scored 296 (and there fore cannot get the seat as the OC cut off is 297)
But now they WANT QUOTA ON ECONOMY. So they have no problem when a poor guy with mark 292 gets the seat while a rich guy with mark 296 does not get the seat. And strangely, in this case, (according to these doctors and also a person called Narayana moorthy, for whom I had great regard, until he too advised economy based quota) the merit is not affected when quota is based on economy.
Now I am not able to understand this……
If the earlier claim that merit is going to be affected by reservation based on caste is true, then merit is going to be affected if the quota is based on economy or for that matter any other reason like the state of domicile (Delhi – 100 percent reservation for Delhi Undergraduates) , Religion (eg Andhra Pradesh) , college graduated (eg JIPMER)
So a person whose primary aim is preservation of merit should NOT ALLOW ANY QUOTA.
But See the Delhi Doctors.
They have gone on Mass CL today. They do not want a SC student getting 292 marks get MBBS. But they were silent when Private colleges were started that made any person, even those who passed 12th after 3 attempts get MBBS. What were they doing when the private colleges were opened? They did not even give a sign of protest. Do those AIIMS guys think that we all are fools to believe that they are crusading for merit at present? What were they doing for those sponsored seats and NRI quotas
They have no problem when some one gets MBBS from Private College even though he gets 50 marks in 12th. They never fought. It was Tamil Nadu students who had always fought against the private medical colleges
They have no problem of a student getting low marks in PG entrance in AIIMS, but getting MD Gen just because he studied MBBS there. At that juncture they never represented to PM or President
And as per the latest statement, they have no problem if a poor guy who gets 292 marks become a doctor while a rich guy who gets 296 has to watch
BUT THEY ARE WORRIED when a SC Guy (or a OBC Guy) who takes 292 marks get admission instead of a Forward Community guy who gets 296.
SO in effect, all these hullabaloo over the past two weeks were not against reservations. It is in fact against the students from the reserved community.
They were not fighting for merit as they were claiming (we already knew that merit is a mask) They fight to maintain apartheid
And see this report in Economic times by Urmi Goswamy from Delhi
(as per http://thoughtsintamil.blogspot.com/2006/05/blog-post_23.html) that sums up the issue
PRIVATE schools and parents worried about their children studying along side children belonging to weaker sections can breathe easy. The government proposes to let them off the reservation hook. The model Right to Education Bill proposes that private schools that receive no funds from the government will not be required to take children from weaker sections. The Model Bill will form the basis of states’ legislation to enable the fundamental right of education.
SO there are guys in Delhi who cannot breathe easy when a student from weaker society studies along with his children. Their main worry seems to be the community of the student who studies along with them and not the marks of the students who studies in the college. God Save India !!!

Friday, May 26, 2006 9:51:00 AM


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